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Post by emeralddragon on Jun 4, 2017 20:54:32 GMT 10
Note: Some characters will have Fame instead of Glory or Infamy. (namely Ikoma Tamiyo, and Asahina "Biru" Kagaku-sha). The reason for this that while Glory by its very nature is inherently good, and Infamy by its nature makes people look down upon you, Fame can be a bit of both. Depending on the person you meet, your actions could be inspirational and the character in question could be a big fan, treating you with far, FAR more respect then your Fame suggests it should. Or, they could be a creepy stalker. Or in some occasions, they could look upon you as materialistic and not a true follower of Bushido.
Our Nezumi also has Niche...which is complicated and most Samurai will not truly understand or care about.
Finally if you have above the standard Fame/Glory/Status or have Infamy at all a little note is made beside it. Thus if a character does recognize another from reputation, they know exactly WHY they do, and they know exactly what they feel about your infamous reputation if you have Infamy.
Asahina "Biru" Kagaku-sha Fame: 5.0 (TV host) Honor: 5.5 Status: 1.0
Asahina Yozhiko Glory: 3.0 (Entrusted with Asahina Jini Tea Set) Honor: 1.5 Status: 2.0 (Entrusted with Asahina Jini Tea Set)
Asako Kokishin
Infamy: 1.5 (Surgeon... slightly experimental Surgeon.) Honor: 6.5 Status: 1.0
Daigotsu Enshiro Glory: 3.0 (position as a ship captain) Honor: 1.5 Status: 4.5 (Being in charge of a ship of 800)
Doji Kaiden Glory: 2.0 Honor: 6.5 Status: 1.0
Heiwa Miumi Glory: 2.5 (Her Unicorn ancestor fought bravely in a famous battle of his day, and she strives to live up to his glorious reputation...in a more courtly and pacifistic role of course.) Honor: 6.5 Status: 1.0
Hida Tetsuko Glory: 2.5 (Took part in the battle of Isawa's Shadow) Honor: 2.2 Status: 2.0 (Kuge)
Ikoma Dorai Glory: 2.0 Honor: 6.5 Status: 1.0
Ikoma Tamiyo Fame: 5.0 (R-Pop idol) Honor: 3.5 Status: 1.0
Iuchi Hajime Infamy: 1.5 (molested Ikoma Tamiyo) Honor: 5.5 Status: 1.0
Kasuga Naosuko Glory: 2.0 Honor: 2.0 Status: 1.0
Koshuud Tai-Wen Glory: 2.5 (Member of the famous Wake Angels Fighters) Honor: 3.5 Status: 1.0
Mirumoto Nanashi Infamy: 2.0 (Acted against the interests of his family and Clan) Honor:3.1 Status: 1:0
Moto Ariel Glory: 2.5 (Member of the famous Wake Angels) Honor: 5.5 Status: 1.0
M'thack-kir Niche: 4.8
Shinjo Kailen Glory: 2.0 Honor: 4.5 Status: 1.0
Shinjo Ketaan Glory: 2.5 (Member of the famous Wake Angels) Honor: 4.5 Status: 1.0
Shinwa Glory: 1.7 Honor: 4.8 Status: 0
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Post by Asahina Yozhiko on Jun 4, 2017 21:11:51 GMT 10
Status: 4.5 (Being in charge of a ship of 800) How does that got worked out mechanically? Just asking for encyclopedic reasons.
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Post by emeralddragon on Jun 4, 2017 22:23:35 GMT 10
Status is a funny and annoying thing, due to the nature of trying to put everyone into a niche in what is a vastly more expanded universe. The Shogun at his most powerful in L5R commanded 2 million Samurai, and so only needed 6 ranks below him.
In this era, there is many more ranks in the system. If we base it off Japan's current forces, their are 9 different ranks of officer (Japan has no 5 star general), with a further 9 ranks below that.
Their is no nice way to fit this all into standard status, and its fair to say that Rokugan in space would likely need even more ranks as the entire Samurai Caste is technically in the army. To put that into perspective...if we assume that the Empire has only the current population of earth (a gross underestimation) and only 3% of the population are Samurai (still an underestimation, as most say under 10%, however if you assume that Shugenja and Courtiers make 2/3s of that its close) we are looking at 210 million troops. The total military on earth would be lucky to be 10 million.
So with all that in mind... I cheated. I will flat out admit that.
A Chui, which is someone that commands over 400 men normally has a status of 5.0. As does a City Governor. An Emerald or Jade Magistrate has 4.5 A Clan Magistrate has a status of 4.0 A Gunso has a status of 3.0
Since I made a ship equal a large village, as well as what I said about army size above, I could hardly give him the standard 5.0. Yet nor did I think a Gunso would be given command of an entire ship, unless it was a very small one or a group. Certainly not 800.
And a magistrate is essentially a police officer and an Emerald or Jade Magistrate, the FBI. To give a basic police officer ranking over someone in charge of a ship is silly. Really, to give a basic FBI agent equal power to a ship captain is silly.
But once again, I wasn't going to do 5.0.
Thus to avoid having to re-write ALL statuses I cheated, and just set him at 4.5
HOWEVER in acknowledging that, I will acknowledge I have to do something. We have Planetary Governors now for example...Thus I will state it here for the record.
Everything above 6 Status has been pushed up, as has the Hatamoto, above 10 status, and status now caps at 15 for the Emperor.
This allows Planetary governors, the higher ranking members of the Imperial Magistrates, and higher ranked members of the army to make some sort of sense.
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Post by Asahina Yozhiko on Jun 4, 2017 22:41:12 GMT 10
You are the GM, it's you game... Cheat us much as you want, but tbh in order to get my status at 2 I spent per the core rulebook 6 points from the 15 cup you strictly enforced, when I asked about crossing that threshold in order to have pretty normal stuff, you refused for the sake of balance.
Unless 18 points plus were spend for this toon to have 4,5 status I see a huge imbalance.
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Post by emeralddragon on Jun 4, 2017 23:15:26 GMT 10
I did not strictly enforce it, I just needed a valid reason to cross it. I specifically told you, give me a valid reason using backstory or otherwise and I will allow it. I in fact listed off situations that I would in fact allow it. I request you do not twist my words like that. - Can I spend the 10 points in advantages? The 15 point cap really troubled me during character creation. I want a RRU at 5 (in order to have more living quarters, a lab, a garden and a temple. All this at the expense of speed and cargo), a servant (the yojimbo), some more cash and ofc Sage (I cut that off, due to the restriction). No. I tend to be willing to give some leeway when it comes to character creation for certain situations, giving people stuff to deal with back-story, or heritage tables or Daimyo points or the like...but I can't just let you spend your disadvantage points as advantages without a reason. However I will concede your point that their is a consistency issue. Not as large as you think as he spent all 15 of his Advantage points on this... but I see your point. I will think about it. I reserve the right to do nothing, or fix this in a way you don't particularly like, but I will at least consider your objection.
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Post by Asahina Yozhiko on Jun 4, 2017 23:23:53 GMT 10
I fail to see how me being a IR3 high status Shugenja needs more explanation to become a valid reason for me to be able to buy the yojimbo my clan assigns me... But as I said your game your rules.
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Post by emeralddragon on Jun 5, 2017 1:04:11 GMT 10
I will come to my decision in 24 hours. Until such time I am locking the thread for further comment, as their is nothing more that can be added until such time.
If any player wants to add their suggestion options in case that I have not considered it, PM me. I will not respond to these PMs, its just a way to present the idea.
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Post by emeralddragon on Jun 6, 2017 3:36:13 GMT 10
Ok, after giving this 24 hours to consider, there are 3 points that I have considered and I will mention each of them in turn.
1)I am quite willing to have my decisions questioned. I am not a flawless individual, and can and WILL make errors. We all do and we must acknowledge it. I encourage all players to question my actions if they see me do something that doesn't make sense or appears unbalanced. I may disagree with their reasoning, but you are entitled to bring something forward. However, in this case you chose to hide the reason for your question behind "encyclopedic reasons," without explaining why you were asking, and when I explained why you then lied about my actions and attempted to entrap me with words I never said.
Your point is valid, however how you raise a point is very important to how it is received, and twisting my words for point scoring is part of the reason this took so long for me to come to a decision. I had to make sure I was approaching this from the right place. Should anyone feel the need to do this again, instead of just straight out explaining what their issue is and why, or tries to entrap me, their will be consequences.
The only reason its getting a pass this time is their is a small chance you did it this way because you were concerned how I would react if you said, "Excuse me, but given the cost of 'Social Position' and the 15 advantage limit, unless I am missing something, surely their is an error in Daigotsu Enshiro's Status." I will state right now, calling me out on a potential error is far better then trying to trap me.
2) Status has always been somewhat RP anyway. What I mean by saying that is that their is only two ways to get status at character creation without GM discretion. Be an Imperial Family member (0.5 extra status) or buy Social position. Yet their are many roles in the Empire that a player may want to play as that require status beyond that simple +1 that social position gives. This includes Clan magistrates (Which if you take rules as written the Magistrate schools should either start as Status 4, or at a minimum of status 2.5 as yoriki.) Imperial Magistrates (which once again have a school and an Imperial Magistrate be it Jade or Emerald Should have Status 4.5) the Kuge, Gunso, and various other positions including ship captains like the Kubane Captain. The books handwave this to give the GM freedom, but the fact remains schools exist that award Daimyo Points, clearly showing rank, that gift neither Status nor require Status to enter.
To my mind, and based off the rules and fluff together, the Social Position Advantage less represents a position earned by skill (like a Magistrate) and proving your worth, and rather a position earned through the expenditure of political capital. Instead of getting better at fighting you or a family member for you chose to spend time in the courts, calling in favors and generating favors you owe others to get some status. I am not about to look at someone who has status for mechanical reason, (like a ship captain or a magistrate) and deny them this status because they didn't spend XP on Social position, especially since for most of the above discussed positions, you would need to buy Social position at least twice, just for it to be logical.
Lets be clear here, had someone tried to play a Soshi Magistrate and my response was, "You will need to buy Social Position twice to play that," I would be a giant dick.
As such my opinion on the Diagotsu's Status remains unchanged. He spent 15 xp to be a ship captain of a cruiser and that position naturally comes with some status.
3) However, I will admit that I did not consider status up until this point, and your question did lead me to make max status 15, rather then 10, to prevent me having to re-write all statuses for all Samurai in the Empire. This solution I will concede makes the "Social Position" Advantage exactly 2/3s as good as it once was. I accept that in any Feudal or even modern society their are people who get a social position using political capital and time dedicated to earn such a position, rather then being worthy of such a position, and thus the Advantage still makes sense. But not at 6 cost.
As such, I am changing the rules just slightly.
The Advantage "Social Position" is now worth 4 points, instead of 6. Should you have spent xp to get that advantage, the extra 2 xp is refunded and you may edit your character sheet for the next 24 hours.
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Post by Asahina Yozhiko on Jun 6, 2017 3:55:11 GMT 10
You use some strong words (trapping, lying and stuff). My initial interest was encyclopedic, then new house rule came up and stuff. Have I misrepresented my point, sure, I can accept that.
As everyone can read in the text you quoted I asked a specific question and you gave a specific answer. It was no. That sounds pretty strict to me for the reasons I explained above. So no I do not accept that I twisted your words, sorry. And seriously threats of punishment? What are we? Kids?
In any case personally I will ditch that under the miscommunication label.
PS: Since status in feudal societies in your view is a fluff thing I will use the 24 hours you so kindly gave to consider ditching it, if that's acceptable.
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Post by Heiwa Miumi on Jun 6, 2017 5:00:24 GMT 10
Slightly late with the piping in here, but might I just add that I feel it is not as much the status part that vexes me, as your argument does make sense to a certain extent.
It is for me more the fact that it was some sort of stealth status creep that was unannounced and not mentioned before now (As far as I am aware, I didn't see it anywhere), because I might have made a different character had I known that the gentry/ship thing could give a status boost. As advice for another time, might I suggest perhaps being clear on that from the start is a more ideal way to give information?
Though I will, respectfully, echo the sentiment that even with the discount on social position and the added length of status, it does look a little bit on the cheap side when you weigh in that there is also a very large ship there (The argument that it's a ship he is commanding for someone else does not apply if it is brought along and used regardless of whether superiors have given the go-ahead or not, I would argue (Possibly unclear wording, do ask if not sure what I mean)).
I would suggest raising the max status limit further, but it would probably also make it easier to rise slight amounts in status otherwise as well when the spectrum is wider.
I think the solution currently reached is a step in the right way, at least, but respectfully, I would have liked the communication to have been clearer initially and I do believe that there is still some discrepancy in the math, recognising of course that calculating in this manner is fraught with traps and unlikely to be completely doable.
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Post by emeralddragon on Jun 6, 2017 11:43:54 GMT 10
When I say 'fluff' I mean simply that its based around your background. A status 3 Crane of course has all those of lower status obey him UNLESS his words countermand a superior to even him. And while a Status 1 Crane does NOT have to obey a status 3 Spider (with minor exceptions like Magistrates and even then their is some wiggle room) there is still a measure of respect that comes with it.
However you are allowed your 24 hours to reconsider the Advantage is reasonable.
Heiwa, I will flat out admit, as I did as I did in my first reply to this thread, that I did not consider status at all untill I put this thread up, nor did I even consider that anyone would have a problem with how I was handling it. This is my fault, and I have admitted that, twice in fact. My only excuse is that this is the first time I have ever GMed an online game, and literally ZERO people inquired about how status would be calculated until now.
However, you status reflecting your background more then some mechanical advantage while not stated specifically in the rules is heavily implied. The game is based off Feudal Japan and to a lesser extent, Feudal Korea and China. It flat out says in the core book that someone in charge of a village should have a particular status, THEN gives you an advantage to put you in charge of a village, called Gentry. It does this several other times, including schools, families, advantages and paths. It is up to the GM in all these situations how closely they choose to follow the in book definition of status.
So yes... I should have discussed status sooner. However the method I am using is encouraged by the books, and our Diagotsu should have higher status, not lower.
As for the ship... its literally the source of the status. Advanced technology or not, this is still a feudal society, and while the Emperor owns everything, he entrusts things to his vassals, who entrust them to their vassals and so on. He has been entrusted with this ship. That by necessary means he MUST have a higher status. Had we been playing in 1200 and he took Inheritance: Kubone, he would get status 3.0, despite the fact that advantage costs the same as "Social Position" due to the responsibilities that come with it. A Kubone captain is essentially a Gunso.
This is 15 advantage points...he has no other advantages, at all. I want you to consider how much that will potentially cost him latter. Should he wish to improve his ship more, he will need to spend further XP on it, and if the ship is damaged or destroyed and his superior doesn't think the ship was lost under appropriate circumstances, thats 15 xp at least and all his status gone, in a blink of an eye.
Should I have been more clear.... yes. I have repeatedly said I am sorry for this, so I am not sure what exactly you want from me, Heiwa.
Should I lower the Diagotsu's status more....no. Its already below where the book says it should be, and unlike with 'social position' he literally fights with the source of his status. Every battle in space he goes into he risks loosing everything. I am not going to discuss lowering his status further then it already is, as I have said repeated times, it should be 5.0. I don't want to put my foot down, but at this stage I have spent multiple hours on this that I should have spent on my house inspection at the end of the week, so at this point I am saying the Diagotsu's status is no longer up for discussion.
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